Transcript

Vernie Ramalingam

Speaker Key:

LM              Laura Mitchison

VR              Vernie Ramalingam

MM             Morisha Moodley

VR              Okay. I’m Vernie Ramalingam. I worked at Guys and St Thomas’ between 2006 and 2017.

LM              Nice.

MM             I’m Morisha Moodley. I’m her daughter.

LM              Awesome. And how would you describe yourself today, in a couple of sentences?

VR              Difficult one that. What do I think of myself you mean?

LM              Yes, just whatever comes to your mind today?

VR              Mum. Daughter. Nurse.

LM              Okay.

VR              That’s me I think.

LM              And a very glamorously attired.  

VR              I try and cling onto my Indian heritage, or culture, whatever you want to call it. I do don’t I? Yes.

LM              Tell us what you’re wearing.

VR              This is called a kurta. It’s basically a long top, which is brilliant. Because it hides all manner of flaws. You don’t have to be worried about being overweight or whatever. Nice fabric. And I like colour, so I normally like bright colours. So I wear red or orange, yellow. If I can get away with it. And my bangles, which you’re so taken with.

00:04:10

LM              I’m really torn. Because BBC logic is like, oh no dangly jewellery. But then it actually feels like, I don’t know if I’m culture assasination if I get you take your bangles off you know.

VR              I’ll keep them on. I’ll not move my hands.

LM              Oh no. They look like they might be quite hard to.

VR              No, I can take them off. That’s not problem.

LM              Nice. And how would you describe yourself in a few sentences.

MM             I don’t know I wouldn’t really describe myself.

VR              Try.

MM             I’m 22. And I’m a film maker. And a writer. And apparently also a curator now. Yes, I don’t know.

LM              That’s pretty good for now. And I’m Laura Mitchison. And I didn’t think about this, which I should have. Given that it’s my question. I’m an oral historian. An artist. A daughter and a carer. And I used to do tree surgery as well, on the side. Which I don’t do so much now.

00:05:33

                   But you wouldn’t know that, you wouldn’t guess would you? I was just wondering, so this project, I’m asking a lot about, very interested in sound. And I wondered if you had a sound that takes you back to your childhood?

VR              God. I’m in my 50s now. You’re asking me to recall things, so I don’t know. I can’t think of any particular sound that would take me back to my childhood.

LM              Okay.

VR              Music maybe? But then, my tastes have changed so much in the music that I listen to anyway. The ocean. The sea. That would take me back to my childhood. The sound of waves actually.

MM             I was going to say that.

VR              Yes.

MM             We lived by the sea.

VR              Well, we went often. Yes.

LM              That’s cool. Where did you live?

VR              In Natal. Durban, South Africa.

LM              Ah. What was it like?

VR              What was it like? It would all depend what angle you looked at things from, I think. Because remember when I was born and grew up and lived and worked in the height of apartheid. So, was it the height, or was it the dwindling era. I think probably dwindling era.

00:07:25

                   But still very much. As a young girl, there was still, you couldn’t travel on this bus. You couldn’t go to that part of the city. You couldn’t go to that beach. You couldn’t go into the library there. You know there were those certain things. There were certain restrictions.

                   So from that respect, perhaps if you looked at it retrospectively now, you would say it wasn’t so nice. You didn’t have that many opportunities given to you. But also, very close knit community. A lot of community spirit. Everybody that lived in the district was, you knew each other. You were all friends.

                   So we were one large, it was a community, in the real sense of the word. And then, yes. And then later on as I grew up to be an adult, and I had the children, the situation opened up a little bit more. So we were able to visit the different beaches and things like that. So there were changes.

                   But ultimately, still lack of opportunity. It’s what drove me to come to the UK in the first place.

LM              That’s interesting. And is there a time of day that you associate with that period in your life, when you remember it? Do you see it at dusk or dawn, or in the day or?

00:08:55

VR              I wonder. So it’s difficult isn’t it? So when you’re a nurse, I think your sense of time, or perhaps, this is the same for all shift workers. Your sense of time, and your time reference changes, depending on what type of shift you’re working. So I would recall, I think, my early career, the things you remember most is going to work when everybody else is going home.

                   And coming home in the morning, maybe when everybody else is going to work. So that, it sort of changes. Because you work long shifts. We would normally work a 12 hour shift, like it is, sort of 12 hours here now. Some of the hospitals still work a 12 hour shift.

                   So you’d have to leave home really early in the morning to make hand-over. So and then you leave, if you’re supposed to be there at 7:30 maybe, you properly start your shift at eight. But hand-over is from half past seven to eight o’clock. So you should be there for half past seven.

                   And then you’re leaving at eight in the evening. But you don’t get away at eight on the dot, do you? You go again at half past eight. So, your time reference changes. It’s a normal sense of what, does this mean something to me? Or not? I used to love doing nights.

                   And even when I came here to the UK. And I think maybe, the dead of the night is the best time for me. I love night shift.

LM              Why?

VR              Well, in the day, there’s a lot going on. And even now, especially now when nursing has become so busy. But a lot of the business is about ticking all the boxes, and getting all the papers correct. You know, for every admission you do. And I suppose it depends on which institution you’re working in.

00:11:02

                   Have they gone electronic, or are they not electronic yet? Are they still paper based? Whatever. So the amount of administrative activity that’s associated with nursing. And a lot of it is prevalent more during the day. Because a lot of the actual clinical activity, the ward rounds, the surgery, you know things like that. Dressings and things happen in the day time.

                   In the night you’re supposed to, yes the really ill patients have got care needs that you have to, maybe if you’re doing observations every 15 minutes, or half an hour or whatever. But it’s a caring time at night. You’re settling people, you’re putting them down to bed. I work in palliative care a lot for the last ten years.

                   You know those patients will need more. Now you’re doing two hourly turns. You’re giving medication, or analgesia, or settling people down. But at night you have a little bit more time. You can go and sit down next to somebody and you can have a chat.

                   You can do the softer things that the day shifts don’t allow. Because you’re pressured by tasks and activity that has to be done within a time frame.

LM              That is such a mind expanding concept of the night, isn’t it?

00:12:26

VR              I’ve always liked night duty for that. And also, for me I think, it also gives me an opportunity to mentor, motivate, supervise the younger members of the team. The younger staff. I’ve even sometimes, sort of talked people that have been in the profession longer than I have.

                   But older generation, or older than I am, who’ve been in nursing longer. A lot of people maybe haven’t felt motivated enough, or didn’t feel that they are good enough to take the next step, or do something different. I spend a lot of my time talking to people, asking them, so where would you like to go?

                   Where do you see yourself? What would you like to do? And the night time is a good time to do that. Because you’d do your tasks. You’d do whatever needed to be done, and if the patients are settled, you’ll have an hour. Or half an hour, two hours, or whatever. Give or take the paperwork.

                   Where you can then sit and talk to people. You can find out, you can encourage, you can advise. Not advise, you can suggest. And if people don’t want to do anything, you can scold, you can push, you can force. So I used to do a lot of that in the night times.

LM              So interesting. And what are the sounds that you associate with the night?

VR              Depends where you’re working. In a hospital, night is never still. I think for us, as a family, we are all night people anyway. We do most of our activities at night. Both my children and I, even if it’s working, even if it’s entertainment, not entertainment. We mostly work at night I think.

                   We do lots of our stuff at night. So it’s a never a quiet time for me. I think if I ever had to be faced with real quiet, it will feel uncomfortable. So even the quietness of meditating for me, is not really quiet. Because my mind is always so busy.

00:15:02

                   So there is always a rush of sound in my head. It’s never ever quiet. So even if I’m still, and trying to be quiet, there’s never a sense of absolute quiet. Because my mind is always full of thoughts. I always having a whirring about something or the other. And then in a hospital it’s never really quiet.

                   And depending on how long you’ve worked I think, I’m very attuned to things. So I can hear pumps, the ivec pumps, if something is going off. If somethings beeping. So if it’s quiet, or even if it’s not totally quiet, I hear the sounds that other people possibly won’t hear. They’d have to ask me.

                   So I would say, I can hear a pump somewhere. Somebody got fluids running out or something like that. So you’d go looking. So I think it’s never a quiet for me. There’s always some type of sound. Is patient sleeping or somebody’s coughing. And there’s that.

                   And if you’ve been around a patient who has been in the ward for a long time, then you get accustomed to their special sounds. The trolleys. I worked at The Marsden. The rush of traffic on the Kings Road. You hear the different types of sounds. So it’s never quiet.

LM              What sounds do people make at night?

00:16:33

VR              I don’t know. It depends on how, mostly people are snoring. Or if they are in pain they are moaning. Or if they’re struggling to breathe, you get the different types of breathing. People rustling about, you know that they’re not settled. And it also depends on the type of patient, and what stage of their unwellness, or healing they are in, that you associate the sounds with.

                   And then you think, if it’s a palliative patient, you might stand. And we do this, so sometimes if a patient is absolutely quiet, then you tiptoe into the room and you stand there and you listen for a long time. And then your watching becomes the listening, does that make sense? So you’re looking at them.

                   And you’re looking for the rising and falling of the chest. So you’re going really close, because you’re like a little bit concerned. You know are they well, are they okay? So you’re watching and you’re listening. And then for the ones that are unwell, you’re going to assess, are they in pain? That they might not say.

                   Or are they grimacing. Do you think you need to give them some extra analgesia or something? But in all those situations, because we’re doing a constant check. You never leave patients alone do you? Because even if the patients are alone and they are in the room, or they are sleeping, you will open the door and you’ll go in quietly.

                   And then you’ll shut the door quietly behind you. Just because you don’t want to disturb. But you need to have an awareness of where they are at. You need to always be checking on them. So it’s a constant. So there’s not a sound you can say, you can pinpoint, that relates to a particular patient. It’s all sounds related to their health, or illness, at that point in time.

00:18:37

LM              Yes, so rich. The listening. And this is going to sound mad. But, could you just list ten sounds? As a one word list?

VR              A one word list of ten sounds?

LM              Like snoring.

VR              I don’t know. Sounds that are meaningful to patients you mean?

LM              Meaningful to you.

VR              Sounds that are meaningful to me. So if I had to, meaningful to me I think, sounds have meaning to me in different aspects of my life. And different aspects of my life are associated with different things. And I think for me, when it comes to family, there’s different sounds. When it comes to work, there’s different sounds.

                   And when it comes, I think personally, the sounds I really love, when it comes to myself, probably relates to nature and music. So those would be the sound of rain maybe. But, not only the sound of rain, the smell of rain, the associated sound and smell of rain. I find that really soothing, comforting.

                   I think holistically it’s very comforting for me. I love the sound of water. So whether it’s a river, or a brook, or a the seaside, or whatever. I really love the sound of water. I think when it comes to family, and again, it’s not associated with the individual. It’s always associated with a sense of the individual in time.

00:20:30

                   So if my mum is the next room. If she’s rustling about in bed, I know that she’s uncomfortable, or she’s not sleeping well. Or if she gets up, and I can hear her going downstairs or something like that. If my daughter is walking a lot, I get worried. So I irritate her by it, but I’m constantly, why are you walking? But she’s thinking and walking. Whereas it’s like, oh immediately I get upset by it.

                   Why is she walking, she’s upset by something or whatever. So it’s a never a sense of a sound like that. Just like with my patients. The sound is in relation to their comfort of discomfort. Then for me sound is in relation to a person’s sense of being. It’s always associated with a sense of the individual in time

LM              It’s really interesting. You can’t really abstract it.

VR              No.

LM              Always a context.

VR              Yes.

LM              Quiet one, would you like to corroborate, or add any picture the night sounds of your mum?

MM             I’m finding it really funny. Because when you’re talking, you go in circles.

VR              I know, I do go in circles. Always come back to one point.

MM             Yes. I think it’s an interesting exercise for you to be told.

00:22:02

                   Can you list some things? And you’re like, no I can’t.

VR              No I can’t.

MM             I was going to say, me pacing, was definitely a sound that’s probably in your head, and ma. When you said meaningful, did you mean in the hospitals, or just in general?

LM              I meant in general.

MM             I would say probably your music then. Your religious music. And the lectures.

VR              Yes. So I listen to a lot of Indian music. So either Indian classical or Indian devotional music. And I listen to a lot of Indian lectures, I wouldn’t say scriptural. It’s based on our philosophical texts. And sometimes abstracted Indian literature. But it’s a lot of lectures. I might have, listening in the background, as I’m doing stuff. So

MM             And the prayer bell.

VR              Oh yes, the prayer bell. When I do my prayer, you know you ring. Have you seen, so as part of the ceremony of doing the RP, turning the lamp for my prayer, you ring the bell as well? It’s supposed to create positive vibrations.

LM              Yes, the sound of bells.

00:23:49

VR              Yes.

LM              What time of day?

VR              It depends. Mostly in the evenings. When I get in from work and I have a bath and I pray. But if it’s a weekend, it could be anytime in the morning even. Or if there is a special prayer then.

LM              What time do you get in from work?

VR              Oh, don’t ask. Oh dear, I’m a terrible timekeeper when it comes to work. So.

MM             Yesterday, was 11:30.

VR              I actually will work. If I get caught, if I get stuck into what I’m doing, I forget about time. So what generally happens to me is, I’ll say I’m going to leave at this time, because I need 15, 20 minutes to walk to the station. And I say, I’m going to get this train, so I need to leave at this time. And then I caught doing something.

                   And then that train will pass. And usually, if I’m going to be leaving early and my staff members are still in, somebody will come in and start talking. And then I would never cut people off, because I just think they need to say whatever it is they wanted to say. So people would normally say, can I talk to you quickly?

                   And they leave in like in 45 minutes to an hour later. So in that way, I spend a lot of my day listening to, and chatting with members of my team. So I don’t get to do the actual tasks related to my role.

00:25:30

                   So when people have gone home, is normally the time I get to work. So I sit down and I go through everything, and do whatever needs doing. And then it depends how urgent things were. Last week, and the week before, was budgeting and finance year end. So it wasn’t pleasant.

LM              So what time of day will you be sitting down with your papers?

VR              Oh, late. I had days last week where I went to sleep at, last Wednesday was half past three in the morning. I had to submit their reports, so yes.

LM              Don’t worry, I’m not judging. I’m exactly the same. And literally, like a fox. Sometimes I go running at one in the morning. Everybody is like, what are you doing? I’m like, it’s fine.

VR              Yes. I suppose we are like that. We’re much, much more awake at night yes.

LM              It’s interesting though isn’t it? Because, and I should not be talking, because it’s not my story. But I don’t know, it feels like there’s a tyranny of the day people, over the night people sometimes. Or there’s an implicit judgement, that if you’re up late, then you must be up to no good. And I’m like, I don’t drink.

VR              Well neither do I, but I think most of the people I work with, realise that I do a lot of my work at night. Because I’ll be responding to peoples queries. And finishing up reports and submitting stuff and things at night. So if something is done at two o’clock in the morning, I will send it off at two o’clock in the morning.

00:27:23

                   I just carry on as if it were day for me. But I think what’s counterproductive to that is, that I would often work. So I start work late. I’ll start like ten, ten thirty. But I would often work post the seven and a half hours you should, without thinking about it, or giving it a second thought.

                   So you would frequently have a consistent number of days where I’m doing regularly over 12 hours.

MM             Do you think your night shifts, when you started nursing?

VR              Impacted the way, yes. Because I did nights for a long time, and it impacted the way. It affected my sleeping patterns, definitely does.

LM              That’s really interesting. Yes. Is there more to say?

VR              No, no.

LM              Is there more to say? What was I going to ask? Oh yes, and this is a question that I’ve asked everyone, and I’m wondering if you can actually just repeat the question, both of you? Because it’s quite a weird question, so don’t hate me.

                   If your nursing day, and by day, I mean everything, from the time you wake up to going to bed, including family time. If your nursing day was a piece of music, what would it sound like?

MM             If your nursing day was a piece of music, what would it sound like? You have to repeat the question.

00:29:26

VR              If my nursing day was a piece of music, what would it sound like? That’s a difficult one. Symphony Number 12. I think. It would depend. Do you know it’s really difficult to do that, because nursing is a very personal, emotive thing? It’s not like being an accountant.

                   Being an accountant would probably be like a little drum, the little drummer boy. You know that kind of thing. No. You feel differently, in different types of situations. A lot of the time I think recently, it’s been quite frustrating. But, it can have its quiet moments. It can have its positive moments. Yes, but I think maybe, yes I think Symphony Number 12.

LM              That’s a really good answer. What do you reckon, if you had to characterise your mom’s day as a piece of music?

MM             As a piece of music?

VR              Yes.

MM             I don’t know, it depends if you’re working, maybe something like [inaudible]. Maybe something like Dub Step.

VR              Dub step. God.

MM             Something hectic. She’s yelling in the phone a lot you know.

00:31:18

VR              I’m yelling at the phone a lot. Oh dear. No, I think I wouldn’t like to say I’m a perfectionist, because I’m not. I have little tolerance. So there’s one thing that really, really can get my goat. It’s when patients are not being given proper, or I perceive, I should say it correctly. Are not being given the proper care and attention that they need to be given.

                   So things are not being done as they should be for the patient. That really pisses me off. The other thing is, when people who should be in a role, don’t know what the role entails. So I’ve moved, I do two different types of jobs now. At the moment, if I work weekends, I work at The Royal Marsden. I’m a nurse. I care for patients.

                   So I’m a nurse. And in the week, I work at Kings College. I manage the research team there. So there’s two different roles. And relate differently, in two different roles. And in either of them, my patients first and foremost.

                   And the other thing is, I have little patience for people who do not understand the structure within which they should be operating. If you’re working there, and you’ve worked there for the last two years, or even if you’ve been there for one year. You should know what you should be doing. And if you don’t know, go and read it up. Simple.

LM              Standards.

VR              Yes.

LM              I was really struck when we were chatting on the phone, which was one of my favourite phone chats actually, of recent years. I really loved it.

00:33:26

                   Was you had some brilliant descriptions of taking, the things that you always take time for. And I’m wondering if you could, let me phrase that as a question. What things do you always take time for with regards to patient care? And you can you repeat for me?

MM             What things do you always take time for, with regards to patient care?

VR              So I think for me, I’m an old school nurse. And when I trained, so there were certain people that impacted on my development I think. I can still remember. My memory is fuzzy when it comes to people, but there are certain people that have stayed in my mind, that then I based how I wanted to be, as a nurse, on them.

                   And maybe I’ve gone beyond where they were at, but there is the really important things for me, is basic nursing care. It’s essentials of care. That concept, essence of care, came around the NHS maybe ten years ago, and then it’s disappeared. But the important things for me, I think patients are people. They’re not conditions.

                   And for me, it is the patient. The things I take care with is, ensuring that they are clean. Would they like to have a shower? Would they comb hair, do their hair. I spend a lot of time, so now the huge thing about blood clots, and people wearing anti-embolic stockings and things, in all the hospitals.

                   So because patients are in bed for a long time, and one of the risks from prolonged bed rest, is if you get deep vein thrombosis. So all patients that come into the hospital, are given anti-embolic stockings to wear. Nearly all of them. Some patients refuse, because they are uncomfortable.

00:35:39

                   And from a sort of oncology nursing perspective, and even if not oncology. My background for the last 18 years has been in cancer. So I’m going to be talking from a cancer related background. So if patients have been in bed for a long time, and if they are weak in themselves.

                   Or if they’ve had surgery and they’ve come out and they can’t bend over, whatever. I mean I spend time taking off peoples anti-embolic stockings, soaking their feet in a basin of water. Creaming their feet. You know, those things. If I had to help somebody with a shower, or help somebody with a bath.

                   I won’t just take them out of the bath, pat them dry, put a gown on. I take somebody out of the bath. I pat them dry. I make sure I cream their body. Cream the skin. And then I’d put the gown off, comb the hair. Sit in bed. You know that kind of thing.

                   So those little things mean a lot to me. And those things actually stay with patients. I have had patients thank me for giving them clinical care. But I’ve had patients really thank me, for taking time to give personal care. It makes a lot of difference.

LM              I really like that. And you had a, what one patient called you something.

VR              Oh yes, my patient, I think this was the one patient, I would say, we developed the relationship, it was post having a shower. Post-surgery. But no, my patient used to call me the angel at Guys. But it wasn’t a Guys patient. It was a Marsden patient.

00:37:22

                   So I developed the relationship with him from there. But after I left, somehow, they managed to check my email down. But I think it was probably because my email was on the, on their website. Guys and St Thomas’, and he used to email me. Just to say how he was doing. You know he’s going off for a walk.

                   He used to be a huge fan of Roman Architecture. So they were going for a dig. He was going down the dales for a walk or whatever. Yes. He used to call me, I think for him, it was a way of saying, yes I was fine. And having some kind of contact. Your patients tend to hold onto you, if you have made an impact on their journey.

LM              That’s really beautiful. And what does, what time of day, do associate with the angel of Guys man?

VR              I think that would be at bath time, in the morning. But mostly, again, it was lots of night times. It was lots of conversations at night. Patients always relate differently to different things. And people teach you things by the interactions you have with them.

                   I had a patient who was, he was an artist. And for a lot of the times you think a patient has had surgery, with colon cancer, and needed to have a colostomy. Which means he ends up having a bag on his tummy, where that collects poo. So you’d think, okay he would have had his diagnosis.

00:39:31

                   He’d have had the nurse specialist talking to him about, this is what’s going to happen. This is how you will manage. The continence nurse, the stoma nurse, talking to you. But what struck me about him was, he said to me, and it was an upset conversation, that aesthetically as an artist, that was for him it was really difficult.

                   For him, because as an artist he saw beauty in everything. And being faced with this, was really difficult for him. I think it’s difficult for all patients. But the manner in which he perceived it, was difficult. So he looked at it from being an artist, and suddenly he was not perfect anymore.

                   So as an artist, he’d see beauty and perfection in whatever. I know different artists view things differently. But I think for him, it meant a lot that he wasn’t beautiful. He was in his 70s, but I don’t think he was a beautiful human being anymore. Because I think, the concept is, that God creates everyone as a perfect human being. Aesthetically pleasing to look at.

                   So those things stay with you. And then impacts on how you look after other patients. And how you provide care to other patients.

LM              Say more.

VR              Well, things like elimination for instance. We don’t worry about. But if you’re faced with having a colostomy, or a urostomy or ileostomy, where you have to be faced with the waste products of your body, and have to deal with it. On a day to day basis. Then some patients take it quite pragmatically. I’ve had to have surgery, and this is something I’m just going to have to learn to live with.

00:41:43

                   But some people, it’s really difficult for them to adjust to all that. You know having to do the self-care and having to be faced with that. It’s really, really difficult. Some patients just can’t do it. Members of the family have to help. So you then take each learning you get from each patient, and it affects how you then deal with somebody else.

                   So I’ve worked with patients that have had gynaecological cancers, and I think gynaecological cancers, the end result sometimes, if it’s not simple, if they’ve had complications and had metastatic disease, and had to have more surgery and things.

                   Some of them can end up with quite, these are the women that are faced with having total abdominal exenterations. Like most of the contents, or pelvic exenteration, most of the pelvis removed. Then end up having colostomy for poo, urostomy for wee. And those kind of things.

                   And to me, it means that they’ve got so much more to cope with. And then I looked after a lady that had breast cancer. And we were having a conversation and she asked me, what did I think. And I said to her, it was like, how bad was this. And I was like, well personally.

                   And I did say personally. I said, for me, I personally think that the women that have got gynaecological cancers are so much worse off than the ones having breast cancer. And I still feel that. But I think for her, in that point in time, she was really offended.

00:43:34

                   She wrote a formal complaint that I had said this to her. But it was how I felt. But that again was a learning experience for me. Because it then taught me that maybe, even if they ask the questions, they’re not ready to hear the answers. And I have to be a bit more careful about how I voice, how I feel about things.

LM              That’s really fascinating. My brain is just going off in all these different directions. Because, yes. Florence Nightingale said, and you probably wonder why I’m banging on about Florence Nightingale. It’s because it was her centenary last year and that was why they wanted to record the nurses that followed in her footsteps.

                   Not forgetting of course, Mary Seacole. Big, big important massive beautiful statue of a great woman. But anyway, so Florence Nightingale and Mary Seacole, very different. But both of them, I think I’d be right in saying, believe that the nurse should almost be invisible and inaudible.

                   And not make themselves known. But I think that’s problematic for me.

VR              It’s difficult, because, and I think it would be difficult on two reasons. It would be okay if you were a clinical phycologist to be almost be unseen. Do you think? Because you almost, every phycologist or psychiatrist I have met, has said we want you to arrive at your own answers.

                   So they lead you on to try and find a, so the answers are all supposed to reside within yourself.

00:45:37

                   And you’re supposed to know what the answers are, or the solution is to a particular problem. You’re supposed to be able to enunciate the problem properly. And then find the answer that is supposed to be residing in yourself. And your phycologist is supposed to be the enabler, that brings everything to the fore.

                   I think for nursing it’s difficult, because it reminds me. I once asked one of my medical oncology consultants, how do you manage to carry on? Day in and day out, and day in and day out. And he was like, by being objective and staying uninvolved. I would never ever claim to be uninvolved nurse.

                   If that happened, I’d resign on the spot. I would. If I ever came to a place where I was cold, or uninvolved is the term, I would leave. I wouldn’t want to work there. Because for me it’s all about caring. And it’s very, very difficult to say that we should not be in the present with the patient.

                   Because a lot of the patients actually develop, will I say meaningful relationships, with the nurses? And some of the patients, it’s so often I’ve heard where we’ve had patients, like end of life patients in the hospital that have been with us for weeks and weeks.

                   And then we discharge them and go to a palliative care home. And they die two days later. Or they die one day later. Or something like that. And then you feel really bad. Because you’d almost. One of my colleagues was telling, I was enquiring about a patient we had on the ward for a long time, on Saturday.

00:47:52

                   And he was telling me she was discharged and she died two days later. And he said, these were his words, I feel bad that we sent her. Because if we hadn’t sent her, she would have lived a bit longer. So because patients feel safe. I think the term is institutionalised, the patients feel safe in the hospital.

                   And they don’t feel safe because of the hospital. They feel safe because of the people that are caring for them. So no, being invisible doesn’t work. And even if you ask patients, their nurse specialist means something to them. They know. The Macmillan nurse who comes home, means something to them.

                   Because there’s somebody there they can ring. That they can call. The doctor that has done their surgery, and then following the surgery, is always caring. He’s always interested in what they have to say. He’s always open, it means something to them. So all these people are important people in the journey.

LM              It’s really super fascinating. And I’ve got a question about that. But before I forget, I want to ask, is there, you know the patient that you told your opinion about the relative misfortune of breast cancer, and gynaecological cancer. Can you remember what time of day that was?

VR              Where we had the discussion? It was probably in the afternoon.

LM              What sort of time?

VR              Maybe around four, five in the afternoon.

00:50:02

LM              Interesting. And the other thing I wondered is, and I wondered if you could repeat the question. Do you feel like you, as a nurse, and your colleagues, are you given time for this really important care, and the essence of care?

VR              Do I think the nursing profession as a whole is given time for the essence of care?

LM              Maybe you can’t answer about the whole profession, but?

VR              No. I think you ask nurse that now, in this day, and will tell you the same thing. No. The pressure of activity is just too much. There’s no time to do those little things. There is no time. I think if you had to follow me on any shift that I do, I would work the way, I work my shift.

                   I do the things I do, and I’m able to do the things I do, because I don’t care that I have to stay an hour, or one and a half hours at the end my shift to do all the paperwork. And then not everybody feels the same way. But I think generally, there isn’t enough time.

                   There definitely is not enough time. Even if, possibly the nurses that work in a general hospital on a general ward, also would feel even worse. Because they usually have a worse patient load. Whereas, even if I’m saying this after working in a specialist hospital, then you can only imagine what it’s like in a general hospital. Where the ratio is maybe one nurse to ten patients or something.

00:52:13

                   I’m talking about a place where I’ve got one to four. Which enables me to do the bits that I want to.

LM              Which are?

VR              No, which is all the essence of caring. That I really want to do, which I think is important.

LM              Again the bathing?

VR              Yes, it’s all there. It’s all the, taking time to take someone out of bed, taking them for a walk. Combing their hair. Doing a bath. Washing their feet. It’s making sure they eat and drink properly. It’s all the little things that add up.

LM              And what’s your perspective as an interested and artistic observer of nursing time and care, time given for care?

MM             I don’t know. It’s funny because I was reading a book about illness. And they mentioned nursing as well. And I found your question about whether nurses should be invisible. Like you saying Florence Nightingale and Mary Seacole saying nurses should be invisible, really interesting.

                   Especially relating that back to all we were just talking about. About like gender and stuff, because I think it is informed by them being women. Kind of being that kind of statement to make, especially in those times. About them not having a voice and not being able to say what they feel.

                   And women just in general, being expected to be care givers.

00:54:08

                   But not have opinions about the care they’re giving. But it’s interesting to hear you talk about. In the book, the guy was talking about how we need to accept that we need people. And the patient has to accept that they need a carer. But you also have to accept, as a carer, that you need the patient in some way.

                   I don’t know, you always talk about how nursing is what you do. And what you are. And you need to be a nurse.

VR              It’s true.

LM              So beautiful.

VR              That’s true though, yes. I didn’t start out intending to be a nurse. I sort of drifted into the profession. And I became a nurse. I did, didn’t I? Yes.

MM             She always talks about retiring. Or, I want to give up or something. And I’m like, you couldn’t. I mean she’d get bored firstly. But also so much of what she is as a person, is about taking care of other people.

LM              Wow. I really loved. Because I basically went off on a massive ramble about Florence Nightingale. But I’m going to probably going to cut my voice out. Would you be able to, you’ve had a really beautiful summary, and it was just riffing off your moms point about the impossibility of being invisible.

00:55:52

                   And I wondered if you could just link that point, to these ideas of gender that you’ve just raised. Forget Florence Nightingale for a minute.

VR              Or you just have to resay what you said just now.

LM              So just imagine that Vernie has talked about the self-effacement, and the invisibility being untenable, because care and compassion just go to the core. And then you said something really beautiful about?

MM             I think the impossibility of, or the presumed invisibility of nurses, links to gender in that a lot of nurses are women. And historically have always been women. And women are sort of expected to take the role of care giver, without ever saying anything about it, or acknowledging that they’ve taken that role.

                   They’re made to take that role, and then they’re also made to not comment on maybe their difficulties, or even their achievements, as being a care giver. Yes and I think that kind of, yes just thinking about the gendered idea of nursing as well. I don’t know if I explained that properly?

LM              No you really did, beautifully.

VR              And I think over the years as well, nursing has definitely progressed from being the care givers from Florence Nightingale’s time, to being the profession that it is now. But in stages. And potentially also mirrors what’s been happening to the way women have progressed in society.

                   So I think the changes in the nursing profession has sort of marched alongside suffragettes, and women becoming much more independent and recognised, in society as a whole.

00:58:16

LM              Yes. But do you think it’s important for you to have a personal style of nursing that you own as your, rather than it being this kind of. For me, and this is just my impression, it feels to me like you have a personal style of nursing in the same way that Goya has a personal style of painting.

VR              I think, again because providing nursing care relates very much to the way you are as a person. Each and every nurse is probably going to have a different style of providing care. Because it’s very personal. It’s not a fan belt operation.

MM             It’s not accounting.

VR              Yes, also. You know it’s not machine operated. It’s people. And people always bring their own personalities, their own experiences into a role.

LM              And what would you say, if you had to characterise your personal style. Could you repeat the question for me?

VR              What would I say if I had to characterise my personal style? I care a lot about my patients. One. But, I’m also quite certain about what I think would be right for them. So it’s a little bit difficult. Sometimes I can be quite persuasive. And, to get people to do what I like, what I think would be good for them.

01:00:58

                   And sometimes I find it difficult when you try to do something that you think will be right for someone, and they keep saying no. And you can’t get it done. So I sometimes tend to get a little bit, oh damn it I can’t do that. So I’m quite strict. But nicely so, with my patients. I would pamper them. And I give them extra care.

                   And normally all the extra bits that I’m talking about sometimes, the nurses don’t have time for. And I’m only there one day a week on the weekends nowadays. But that has been my style of nursing from the time I’ve started. I’ve done, gone the extra mile. But, and then the patients will, you know you talk to them.

                   You cajole them to do something that you want them to do, and after they’ve done it. And say, oh that feels so nice. And feel relieved that they’ve done something. Or it’s a sense of achievement for them. I’m really tired now, but it feels so good to have been out and had a shower. Or sat out of bed, sitting in a chair.

                   I’ve really done that. Or I’ve walked half the length of the room and back. It feels really good for me to be able to do that. So it feels nice. But sometimes I have to be a little firm in the beginning to get going. So I think it’s a balance of, I don’t know.

                   One of the ladies that was in my clinic this week, and I got really taken aback by it. So we’re having an audit and I went into the clinic to ensure that everything was fine. But I also went to tell them that I needed them to do something. So I was talking to the two research technicians in the room.

                   And one of the patients had come in to have her bloods taken. And so my technician, one of them he said, oh this is my matron. And she said, I could tell.

01:03:09

                   I got really taken aback. I was like, oh that’s strange. Because I didn’t think there was anything obvious in my manner, or anything that comes across as being, oh I’m the boss or whatever. But she was, immediately she said, I could tell. So maybe that explains what you’re looking for.

LM              Definitely. What time of day was that?

VR              Oh this was in the morning, this ten. Yes it was ten o’clock, it was in the morning. If you’re looking for, does the way I relate to people, or the way I relate to patients change with the time of day it is, or whatever. It doesn’t. No.

LM              No, no. I’m just trying to.

VR              Pinpoint the time.

LM              Little time stamps.

VR              No this was definitely in the morning.

LM              Yes. Slight side step. And that is, how have the rituals and rhythms of your day changed during the COVID pandemic? Or have they?

VR              Well. So we were very busy during COVID. Because we were very, very busy. I went to work every day. And we were delivering the COVID research trials at the Trust. So my entire team was busy. And I went in to be present with them. I wanted to be there. I was helping doing some of the delivery.

01:05:04

                   We worked weekends. But I also feel at times like that, I need to be there. I don’t want my team to feel that they’re left alone to be doing things by themselves. So it was really busy. So it became more than a normal busyness. And then also, in the weekends, I was, because of the staff shortages, I was going to work at The Marsden as well on the wards.

                   So it was more, more was needed. So it was very busy I think for me. It wasn’t so much a business of administrative tasks, as it is in my role. It became quite clinical. Sort of mixture of clinical and admin.

LM              So were there particular things that you were doing more of, than like actual?

VR              No it was just more clinical roles. Like in my current role, it’s very administrative. Because I manage the team. But during the COVID time, I was very, very clinically based with patients. Yes. Delivering drugs, and doing infusions, and that kind of thing.

LM              And the little things, the caring things. Not little, that’s not little.

VR              Do you know what, I think during this time. So, I didn’t work because I’ve got really bad migraine. I couldn’t go and work on the proper COVID wards. I was going, so in my current role in the research, we were delivering all the COVID research. So we were going onto the wards and putting up infusions and coming out.

                   Going into the ward, putting up infusions, taking them down, and coming out. We weren’t spending time with the patients.

01:07:00

                   And providing the day to day essential care that they needed. I do remember one instance where the patient, husband and wife, were being looked after in the same room. And I think one of the doctors had been catheterising the patients. And it was just on a ward that I was going into to do the infusion. I was going in to do the infusion for the husband.

                   But somebody had been catheterising the wife. And then I think the nurse that was working on that ward. The doctor had gone out, and then for me now, I was there doing something for the husband. And the wife was lying and the bed was wet and everything.

                   And I felt, no, I sort of stuck his infusion up, and I left him, and I came across onto this side. It wasn’t my ward, it wasn’t my patient and I was well aware that maybe the nurses might get upset. But I was having none of it. I went and got the linen and I changed her. I washed her.

                   I changed her and I got a changed the linen in the bed and things like that. And then I called the nurse that was supposed to be looking after her. And I said, can you bring a disposal bag to get rid of all the linen. But it’s one of those things I would do automatically. It doesn’t matter to me. It was the patient who was uncomfortable.

01:08:21

                   And I could do something about it. But normally then, at The Marsden it didn’t matter. I mean I think the girls that worked where the wards were full COVID, the patients were really unwell, it was difficult for them. But on the other wards, yes it was much busier. It was much more difficult, because the patients had no relatives.

                   They couldn’t visit. They still don’t have relatives. A lot of the patients are in with us for a long time. They get really low in mood. Some of them engage well with the iPad and things like that, to talk to the relatives. But most of them get really, really depressed. Really low in mood.

                   So it’s that you have to sort of jolly them along, and talk to them, and spend time with them. And then you can’t spend a lot of time in the room, because restrictions on time, and distance, and what you can and cannot do. So it made providing the care difficult.

                   But sometimes you just want to provide the care. And you’ll do it anyway.

LM              What time of day was the bed linen incident?

VR              About half past three maybe.

LM              Oh, sorry, could you just include my question in the answer, sorry?

VR              You mean the COVID bed linen incident, you’re talking about. Yes it was half past three, the time of day. It was around half past three.

LM              Do you work with Gerry Tralano on the trials?

VR              I know him, but I don’t work with him. From the renal team?

01:10:08

LM              No. He’s, I think he’s matron of research.

VR              Which hospital?

LM              Research trials. But of course, there’s lots of research trails.

VR              Yes. Kings?

LM              No.

VR              Not Kings?

LM              Guys, he’s at Guys.

VR              So he is in clinical research facility?

LM              Yes.

VR              I do know of him, but no.

LM              You don’t work with him?

VR              So if he’s managing the clinical research facility, he’s operational managing the clinical research facility? I don’t know whether he actually works with patients though.

01:10:55

MM             There was one thing, because I’m just thinking because you asked about rituals. I was just thinking, I did a film actually about COVID, my mom and ma, which is my grandmother. And there was a new ritual that developed during the trials. Because mom was going into the COVID wards, and my grandmother is high risk.

                   So it would be like, when she came home, or before she came home. Say at seven o’clock, I’d get a text that would be like, can you get a dressing gown and a towel and like, get the bath ready. So she’d come in at like eight o’clock, and she’d go and have a bath and then me and ma would be having dinner.

                   And she’d have a bath and then ma would go upstairs and watch TV. So she could come in and have dinner. So it was like, scheduling it so ma and mom would never be in the same room at the same time.

VR              Yes, because my mom is 83 and she’s also had breast cancer. So it sort of having to make sure she is safe.

LM              So what times would you be doing the different.

VR              It was whatever time I was coming home, if I was going to be a little bit later. But whenever I was coming home, it was just to send M a text to say, get things ready for me and make sure my mom is not around. Yes. So that we could lead separate lives basically. I think we never crossed paths through the time.

MM             There was like a whole week, where they just didn’t talk to each other. Or mom would be like, ma would be upstairs, and she would be like shouting and mom downstairs.

01:12:49

VR              And it was worse when I had COVID. Because I never came out of my room when I had COVID. Yes, because my mom was there.

LM              Tell me more about, the feeling of that time. Where you feel it when you talk about it now?

VR              Talk about COVID. Talk about the time. So for me the entire COVID period, was a difficult time I think. Our primary concern was, because it’s just my mom, my sister and I here. And it was easier for my mom to be with us. Because if she stayed with my sister, she would have had to be confined to her room.

                   Because my brother-in-law was also high risk. So she wouldn’t have had the freedom of the house. Whereas she had the freedom of the house and gardens if she came to me. But I was aware of the risk, and I was aware that I needed to change my behaviour, to allow her the freedom of the house and the gardens.

                   So that my mom could move around. But also because I felt I needed to be there for my team. I could have chosen not to work, because a lot of people that had elderly relatives at home, were given other tasks, or home working tasks or whatever.

                   So I could have chosen not to work and not to go on the COVID wards. But I felt that my team needed me to be there for them as well. Because it was important. The girls were getting stressed, constantly being faced with patients with breathing difficulties, and things like that.

01:14:50

                   So that they would have to speak to some of the patients ended up in ICU and we did, the Gillium Xavier trials, we did them at Kings. And my team was going around delivering the drugs. So it was difficult for them. Some of the patients became unwell and ended up on ICU.

                   I needed to be there at the end of the day when everybody was in the office to debrief. Not officially debriefing, so sometimes I might have to walk around the office, and they’d be in their offices, and I’d stand in the corridor and I’d ask how you were.

                   And then somebody would pitch in with different statements, and talk about different things. So they had a chance to talk about what was happening to them. And I think it wasn’t an easy time. Because I think people focussed on the nurses that were on the ward providing, the care on a day to day basis.

                   Whereas, because my girls were in and out, in and out, they weren’t seen as the COVID nursing staff. These are the research nurses. They’re not providing the COVID care. But I think it affected them. And sometimes they came across patients that were really poorly, really unwell.

                   So I needed to be there for them to talk about the experiences. Because they needed, although it was a large team, it wasn’t like the Guys Vaccine Task Force. You know Guys stopped everything else to do vaccine studies. And I had a group that was across all the research teams.

01:16:29

                   So it was an amalgamation not of my team, but other nurses from other teams as well. But my team was the core. And I needed to motivate them. And not doing anything, but by being there, allowing them to talk. By giving the freedom to be independent and make decisions and run the studies.

                   Run the doctors moves through, you know things like that. And my clinicians are really good. They would give the nurses, and nurses know what to do. This is what needs to be done. Tell me what you need me to do. I’m there to do that. You know when we were all working weekends, they’d come in.

                   Okay what do you want me to do? And for me, just to foster that kind of behaviour, is why I needed to be there. And I didn’t really need to be there to go and give the infusions and things like that. But I wanted to. I wanted to do that to be a part of it all with them.

                   So when there were weekend rotas and weekend shift, I would work the weekend shifts, to give some of the other girls a break. And so I think that time was difficult. It was change. It was difficult. It fostered a lot of togetherness. And it would have the downside, I suppose any stressful situation, you made up your mind about those people that would stand by you, and work hard and fight your corner.

                   Or guard your back, or your rear guard or whatever. And other people who just didn’t do enough. I’ve got a really, really good team. So yes, it was a difficult time overall.

01:18:20

LM              I’m just amazed by the adaptations and the sacrifices that you made.

VR              I think nurses have had to do a lot during COVID. It’s changed the entire perception of how we work. And also, a lot of the day care, outpatients clinics and things, have repeated appointments and things, have all gone virtual now. And then some places have been trying to make things virtual for a long time and it hasn’t moved on. But now it’s moved.

                   Things have got moved on and I don’t think there’s any going back. I remember reading somewhere, somebody was talking about change in the NHS. I can’t even recall what book it was. But I was doing a change management module. And there was a paper, they were talking about change in the NHS.

                   And I think the difficulty with fostering change in the NHS, is that you can’t rightly do it. Because the NHS is like one big piece of clockwork. It’s a huge machine. And you can do change, you can do as much. You put all the PDSA cycles in place, or whatever, but the change will be effective in a particular area.

                   So one cog in the entire wheel might change. The entire system doesn’t change. Why COVID was, I’ll say in inverted commas, beneficial to the NHS, is that changes that the NHS has been trying to make for ages, happened on an NHS wide scale.

                   It wasn’t one institute or one department trying to change the way they were working. Because if you don’t get, if you need to make change in the NHS, you need to get buy in from everyone.

01:20:29

                   Importantly patients. But also this consultant, that consultant. That lead, that one, that nurse, that one. You don’t want anybody to get upset because you haven’t asked their opinion and whatever, whatever. The people that contribute to the decision making are so varied.

                   And COVID was good in that, say, if you wanted to do virtual clinics. You wanted to lessen the number of appointments, people coming into hospital. It happened NHS wide. Everything went virtual overnight. Now the entire machinery was changing as one.

LM              I love that idea that the NHS is clockwork. Can you say it again?

VR              It’s like cogs in the clock. So each department, each hospital, each trust is an individual. But overall, it contributes. So the NHS has been trying to go electronic for how long? From the debacle in the 1970s. But it’s never been able to do it. They’ve been trying to cut down bodies in the hospital.

                   Bodies in a GP practice for ages, and it hasn’t happened. But it happened during COVID. Like I said, it was like clockwork. Everything worked as one. It’s all the little wheels in the grandfather clock. If you open that, how many different wheels trying to make things go. But this one it all went as one, so that’s how it worked.

LM              Tick tock, tick tock. Tick tock. Tick tock. Do you have any reflections about the personal impact on Vernie, of 2020?

01:22:25

MM             I don’t know.

VR              I didn’t go walking.

MM             Yes, maybe. A lot more time at home is the thing.

VR              Towards the end of last year, yes.

MM             I think it was probably difficult, personal health getting in the way. It’s all having to consider that as well. I remember you were talking a lot about of when it was April, and it was the high of COVID and stuff, mom really wanted to work in the hospital. But she couldn’t because of her migraines. So I think, yes I don’t know.

VR              I couldn’t work on the wards. So most of the research staff was being redeployed. And I would have wanted to work on the wards. I couldn’t because of my migraine. So that was a bit difficult.

MM             Was facing that difficult?

VR              These migraines have been, oh. A beggared deal, I think. So now like for instance, because I had COVID this year. And coming out of that. So I’ve had migraine, I’ve had chronic migraine for the last three of four years now.

MM             Longer than that.

VR              Longer than that, but I’ve been sort of treated for the last four years.

01:24:13

MM             Yes, treated.

VR              And I started getting palpitations before the COVID kicked off, the first time. So coming out of COVID I have worse palpitations and worse migraines now. So it’s affected me being able to do the shifts that I do on the weekends. So I can’t do a long day.

                   Whereas what I would have done before. And I think a long day feels nice because you are in in the morning, you can help the patients have a bath or a shower. And do the beds and things like that. You get to know then a little bit more. And I can’t do two days. I’m really exhausted.

                   If I’ve started at eight, by five o’clock I’ve had enough. I did one shift after I had COVID as a long day. And I couldn’t, by six o’clock I was done. So I think it’s affected me like that. Which has been really bad for me. Having to face up to that. It’s been really bad. So yes. I’m still struggling with that one.

                   It’s been a bit difficult. So I don’t know those nurses that have been so unwell that needed ventilating, and I’ve been off for three or four months. And can’t go back to normality. I think I’m lucky in a way because I’m not active on my feet all day long. I’ve got a desk bound job now.

LM              But what I’m hearing is amazing. And correct me if I’m wrong. You said your main reflections about getting COVID is just that it stopped you…

01:26:07

VR              From working.

LM              Yes. And?

VR              I think maybe if I had been working on the wards. If I had been a ward bound nurse at that time, then my reflections would be different. It would be watching people struggle, and watching people suffer. Or watching people die alone. I’m sure many nurses are carrying those feelings around.

                   I very rarely, I don’t know whether to say I’m lucky in, even though I’ve been working around death and dying for the past ten years now maybe. I’m lucky in that a lot of my patients have been very, very well supported. Nearly everyone has had loved ones and friends around at the end of days.

                   So it’s been a sort of loving dignified passing. For a lot of my patients. But I don’t know what this COVID, what it’s done to people. In that phase of life, it’s been very difficult. And I think, for them, the patients struggle, and the family struggles a lot. Not being there. So I don’t know the impact of that on people.

                   It’s difficult for me that we’ve got patients in hospital, and the family aren’t allowed to visit. And some of the patients are elderly and they can’t talk to people. And you can’t give enough. You can only give so much.

MM             I think you’ve felt guilty.

VR              I did actually, yes. At not being able to do more, or give more. Or be there. It’s all about being there. Like I said, nursing is very personal for me.

01:28:46

LM              It’s so fascinating to have this insight from Vernie’s personal life. What do you think the relationship is like between, what am I going to try and ask. This is the question. I don’t know if it’s a good question. Maybe you can read it for me and tell me if it’s a good question.

                   Do you mentally travel between your work time and home time? Does that make sense?

MM             What do you mean by that?

VR              Do I mentally travel?

MM             Do you mentally travel between work time and home time? But I’m not sure what you mean?

VR              I know what you mean. Sometimes the only way you are able, and a lot of times, I’ve heard this phrase so many times throughout my nursing career. Even when I started as a student. A lot of people will tell you to leave your baggage at the gates. Leave your baggage at the gate, and pick it up when you’re coming back the next day.

                   Meaning that you don’t take your work home. And you don’t bring whatever is at home into your work environment. And what you’re asking was, are you asking if I, at home, am I mentally thinking about work?

01:30:41

LM              But also, yes. Whether there’s things at work that remind you of home as well.

VR              Are there things at work that remind me of home? Sometimes there would be things at work that might remind me of home. But not often. Because, especially if I’m in the ward around patients. I need to focus on them, because it’s their time. I get really annoyed.

                   So I’m sure you must have heard this, that patients would complain that nurses are talking over the bed, over them. So if you’re making a bed for instance, it takes two nurses to make a bed. And as you’re making the bed, or as you’re washing the patient, or whatever, if you’ve got two of you in the room.

                   Now you’re talking about something that you’ve done in the weekend. Or you went on a date, or something like that. Do you know, that annoys me? I don’t mind if we talk to the patient, or we’ll discuss. I very, very often, if I’m doing something with a patient, I very often will ask, or if they’ve got the television on.

                   I might discuss what’s happening on the telly, or in relation to what have you been watching. What are they saying? Or what is he going on about now? This weekend the patient and I, we were watching Prince Phillip’s funeral. And he was passing comments, and I was passing comments. But as I was doing things for him.

                   So I make it a point when I go into the room with a patient, I will ask about them. I’ll ask about home. We might talk about gardening. I will talk about my garden, and they will talk about their gardening. So personal as it relates to the patient. So if you’re asking me?

01:32:37

                   If there’s things being at work that remind me of home. It will be things like, if that can be abstracted, or related to what the patients are saying, if it’s in conversation. If somebody asks me about my son, or they’ll ask about my daughter. What are your children doing? How many children do you have?

                   Or where are you from or you know. Where’s your accent from? Or things like that. So it’s like that. But it’s in the context of having a conversation with the patient. Then we might talk to go on holiday. Do they go hiking, go walking. That kind of thing. So it’ll be that type of conversation.

                   But it’s in conversation with the patient. When I’m at home I think of work a lot.

MM             Its funny there’s bleed one way, but not the other way.

VR              I do. So and I think, maybe it’s a routine thing with nurses as well. Because I was on the train. So worked Saturday night, Saturday evening. And as I was coming, I walked from Kensington to Victoria. And I got on the train and I see there was a missed call from one of the nurses.

                   And he just lives down the road from the hospital. So he would have got there on time. And he was like, oh Vernie, I wasn’t sure. You did this for me. This is now, he’s at home. I’m just getting ready for bed, and I’m like, I wasn’t sure if you signed the drugs out of the CD book. And I’m like, okay.

01:34:17

                   So he’d already been at home, and he was suddenly thinking of what happened at work. So he’s calling me to make sure I signed the drugs out of the book. So I think it’s a common thing. Like you reflect on your day, and you think about what has happened.

LM              Do you want to say more about the chats that you guys have?

MM             I guess like when mom comes home, what we often we talk about, what happened at work. And if there was anything interesting.

VR              It it’s been a difficult situation mostly, yes.

MM             And the different people and her teams and their drama, which is always fun. But yes, I guess she does think about work, at home, a lot.

VR              It’s true. It’s just because I think, my profession is very much a part of me. I think, it moulds a large part of my character. Even my relationships with my family, I think. A lot of it is relating to giving advice, or that kind of thing. People will come to me with problems. Do you find that funny?

LM              No, it’s just interesting how. Yes I’m really fascinated by women’s professional and personal identity, and how nursing relates to what you do outside. I don’t know. Do you?

VR              But if you really think about it. And I’ve been nursing for a long time now. I started in 1993. My training finished in 1996. That’s a hell of a long time. And I think if you do something for that length of time, invariably, it affects your personality. It affects who you are, and what you are. And it affects what you become.

01:36:53

                   I can’t see somebody not being affected by, I mean if I had to be a different person in work, and a different person out of work. Then I’m not being true to myself. One way or the other. So one of the personas is going to be false.

MM             I think there’s also moments where nursing kind of bleeds into the normal life. Like people will text mom. So back home especially people from South African, will text mom and be like, what’s this medication. Or a doctor said this. So she’ll have to give advice. Or she’d have to contact a doctor there. And all of that.

                   But also I think there’s been a couple of times when people have gotten ill back home, and moms had to go back and take care of them. Dealing with mom’s grandmother. That was the kind of, she became a nurse.

VR              Yes, to my grandma. It’s your personal identity isn’t it? I think nursing is a personal identity. It’s who I am ultimately. And I think as well, so in South Africa, the nurse training is different, the way it is in the UK. In the UK you go to university and you study to be a nurse.

                   I was employed in a hospital when I started my training. I was employed as a nurse in a hospital. And affiliated to a college, to do my diploma. And there’s a difference there. Because you get taught the basics of being a carer first. And then the education followed on from that.

01:39:03

                   So I had my initial, my first day at work was on an orthopaedics wards in a hospital. And then we’d had two weeks orientation in a hospital. And then I went to college to obtain all the nursing knowledge.

LM              Did you ever think about nursing?

MM             Me, no. I think at one point I thought about becoming a doctor.

VR              She wanted to be a psychologist.

MM             Yes, a psychiatrist, when I was in Year 9. That died very quickly because I hated biology.

VR              And I was very against the idea.

MM             I do think, there are moments now, when I think, like doing art. I have a lot of, what they call, things about it. I may think a lot about that. I do think if my time could be better spent doing something else, I don’t know. So I think it’s funny, because maybe in the past year or so, I’ve thought about nursing. But I could never do it.

VR              Do you know I’ve met numerous nurses over the 20 odd years that I’ve been nursing? And I think like most occupations, or most professions, anybody can be given the education and knowledge, and asked to go and do the job and they could do it.

                   And a lot of people have actually come into the profession because they want to do a job. Or want to be professional. That’s my impression. You can’t teach people to care though. And that makes the difference as to how the job is delivered.

01:41:30

LM              You can’t teach people to care.

VR              No.

LM              Why not?

VR              You can’t. You cannot teach people to care. There’s something that comes from within you. I’m not saying you can’t teach people to do the tasks. But it’s not only the doing of the tasks, it’s the attitude that goes with the doing of the tasks. That’s important.

LM              It feels like care is dark matter?

VR              In what way?

LM              It’s here in the room in abundance. But we can’t quite pin it down.

VR              You could say that. I don’t know. Potentially you could say that. I don’t know.

LM              What do you think the essence of care is?

MM             I don’t know. I think about this a lot I guess. My friend, who I collaborate with, Sara, her mom is also a nurse. And it’s really funny. Because I think ideas of care come into both of our practices. Like when I make films I’m really interested in listening to other people’s stories as well.

01:43:11

                   And I’m just wondering, if you being a nurse, has impacted on that with me. But you mention care a lot. It’s obviously very important to you. I don’t know if I agree with you in saying that you can’t. She’s very adamant about these things, so I don’t know if I agree that you can’t teach people to care.

VR              You can tell people what the essence, or you can tell people what elements and principles need to be followed. But can you guarantee that they will actually practice it? You can't. And I think that those types of things come from an individual’s personality, from your beliefs, from your values.

                   Those things impact how you care. You know, care is a concept. And not like I’m caring for you. But the care, as a noun, is different. It’s like what you’re saying this ephemeral care that has different layers and levels to it. Task orientated care is different.

                   It’s why patients will remember one nurse. Do you know what I mean? It’s why patients will remember that one doctor. It’s why patients will say, I like going to him. It’s because of that something else. It’s like our people say, in order to be a good leader you have to have that quality.

                   But nobody says what that quality is. I often say to her, it was like Hitler had that quality. Don’t I?

MM             I know. We don’t need to get to that.

VR              We don’t need to get to that place.

01:45:42

LM              That’s so funny. Please tell me more.

MM             I’m thinking if this relates to something we were talking about really recently. We were talking about, we were talking about places when my mom transferred over here. And I was saying that, because I was reading about a lot of stuff. And saying about how I really can support that, the law needs to be in place to protect people from that.

                   And that’s the most important thing. Because if you’ve got people being protected. If there’s tasks, if we’re thinking about it like that, tasks that need to be completed in order for people to feel safe. Or be safe, rather than feel safe. I was saying, that’s if someone acts not racist, it’s good enough.

                   Rather than them actually being not racist. I don’t know if this makes sense? What you were saying about people completing tasks. Like even if they don’t do it with that je ne sais quoi of like care, if they still complete the task, surely it should be good enough. But it’s not.

VR              Yes, so my argument to what Ish was saying about people. The law being there to protect people, is that we can’t guarantee that everybody is going to follow it for one. And the other things is, that it’s not only the law that needs to change. It’s people that need to change. The thought processes need to change. The thinking needs to change.

01:47:30

                   In order for a new society to form, or a new way of thinking. For culture to change. And that’s how I feel about nursing. That’s why I say you can’t teach people to care. You can tell them what the principles and the values are. They need to learn. It needs to come from within. They need to want to do it differently.

MM             I can’t remember what we started talking about that day.

VR              It was about gender and law.

MM             No I feel like something happened at work.

VR              Was it something at work?

MM             Someone either said something to you. A patient?

VR              No, it was something in the news. If it was transphobia and gender.

MM             No because we were talking about racism.

VR              Okay.

MM             I feel like it was an incident a while back, and someone was saying something to you.

VR              I can’t remember now.

MM             I can’t remember either.

VR              Yes, and I’ve had to face.

01:48:40

                   I mean there’s been the odd racist, you know, I think given the scope of patients that we deal with. There’s been the odd incident. You just brush it off. I get really angry. So most of the times I come home and something has upset me, Ish and I would have a real, bless her.

                   She’s the one I sort of unload to, when I get home from work. Like uh, can you believe that made me so cross? Or if I’m really upset and something’s been really touching me, and I’ll come home and I’ll talk about it with her. So yes.

LM              That’s one thing we haven’t talked about at all actually. Like, if there’s a, again this might sound really contrived, but is there a time of day you would associate with political discussion around nursing?

VR              No. I think that kind of thing you discuss when it arises. So a lot of the times, so when you go to any courses about leadership and professional development and leadership in nursing. Change in nursing. A lot of it is about politics. About politics around nursing.

                   The development and changes, and how the political climate affects what’s happening in nursing. That kind of thing. But on a day to day basis, I don’t think so. Especially the way the NHS is now. A lot of the focus is going on making things happen, on getting things done.

01:50:45

                   I think, yes, COVID has stretched, has stressed the NHS over the last two years. But the NHS has been in a state of stress ever since I know it, and that’s been for 20 years now. The number of patients we’ve seen has grown. Yes, technology has moved. But the technicality of procedures, and the intricacy of surgeries and things like that, has also changed. Also developed. It’s become more advanced. And that comes with its own responsibilities and difficulties.

                   So a lot of the time nurses, nurse managers, is spent trying to make sure, or trying to ensure that patients can get the care that they need. The nurse managers are struggling to make sure we have enough resources. And she or he has got enough resources. She or he, has got enough resources and enough staff in order to deliver the care to patients.

                   Yes, there are people that are looking at political context, and that kind of thing. But mostly it will be nurses that have gone to the level where they are working in a university, or as a lecturer. Writing a doctorate, or doing a PhD or something like that.

                   Day to day, maybe the nursing students, whilst they are in university. But day to day in undertaking your role, you’re too busy. I mean all the focus is on what you need to do, to be concerned about what’s happening in the outside. Politically how does this impact?

                   Yes, you do think about it. When the time comes for voting and things like that. You think about it. You think about it when they give you a one percent salary rise over three years. That kind of thing. But routine day to day activity. No.

01:53:02

LM              Have you got thoughts to add about?

VR              Well maybe I should say, with me, I don’t think about politics. Even politics in nursing. Sorry I interrupted you there.

LM              No, it’s your show. No, I was just curious if you had thoughts about systemic inequality within the NHS?

VR              Yes, it’s there. There is. But then I think that’s true of every organisation. I think as well, there are different things that impact on it. I think in the olden days, you could happily say it’s who you know, when you got a job. Nowadays, maybe things are not so easy.

                   You have to apply, and if you meet the grades, you’re probably given the role. But still, it’s whether somebody prefers you, or somebody knows you, or whatever, in that particular. But inequality, when you’re talking about gender inequality, or?

LM              I just wondered whether, and it’s really difficult, because obviously you are who you are. You’re not somebody else. But I just wondered whether you felt that, I don’t know. This might be one to repeat the question. Has you experience been different, because you are a nurse from South Africa? And a nurse of Indian heritage? How would I ask that?

MM             I think, has your experience been different, or been impacted by your race or your background?

01:55:31

VR              That is difficult for me. Nursing I think, 80% of the nursing population are female. And from the nurses I have come in contact with, that I have worked with over the last 20 odd years. They have been a variety of different nationalities. But generally I think overseas nurses coming into the country.  

                   I think the main impact, I think for me initially coming into the country was, felt a bit strange. I came in as a nurse with BUPA, and I think very quickly, I got a discharge planning coordinating role. So I moved up, but I didn’t stay with them for very long. Because I came to London.

                   And then, I know I’m a very good nurse. I knew I was a very good nurse when I came to the UK, only because I’d been a midwife before I came here. And I was quite confident that I was a good nurse anyway. Confident in my abilities. And when I came to the UK, I went from being very senior, coordinating the labour ward role, to suddenly coming down as a junior Band 5 nurse. It was a total change.

                   But I still didn’t lose my sense of, yes I’m a very good nurse. And I didn’t wait around. For instance, when I came I was already doing suturing. I could catheterise, I could cannulate, I could take bloods. Everything. When I got here. But then you can’t do anything here until you’d been signed off.

                   And especially the Trust, I came to The Marsden first. They are very strict about everything. You have to sign a piece of paper and do workbook for everything. So I very quickly, whereas you were given at that time, they gave you three months to get your medicines training done, after you started.

01:58:10

                   And I was like, I’m not having any of this. I went through everything in a hurry, within one week. I got my training together, got my book signed. Okay fine, now I don’t have to wait around for another nurse to come and give medication to my patients. I can go and do it myself. That kind of thing.

                   But that is because it was my personality. But then, culturally people are quiet. A lot of the Indian nurses are really quiet. You know they won’t argue, they won’t stand up for themselves. They won’t talk back, or not that I’m saying you should. A lot of the Pilipino nurses are like that as well.

                   So it impacts how, and whether you have sufficient ambition to want to do things differently. My friend was talking to me yesterday. And she said, oh it was really good being in London, because she knew what she wanted. She wasn’t afraid of moving jobs every year, or every other year.

                   Because she had her eye set on a goal. She became the youngest nurse consultant, diabetic nurse consultant, she’s in Haringey, or whatever.

LM              I’ve kept you a long time, haven’t I? She’s the youngest in Haringey?

VR              Yes. As diabetic nurse consultant. And yes, so it was interesting. That’s where she wanted to be. Whereas I wouldn’t have changed jobs every two years. Even every year. I mean I’ve been in my current role now since 2017. I’d been in the one before that 2006 to 2017.

02:00:04

LM              Are there any funny stories that I should know about before we finish.

VR              Oh I don’t know. There are probably loads, but none that has stayed in my mind.

MM             I can’t think of any.

VR              No, usually when I bring stuff home, it’s either upsetting, or angry.

LM              It sounds like you guys laugh a lot though?

MM             Yes.

VR              Mostly because I’m letting off steam about something.

LM              Is there anything that you’d like to ask your mom about nursing?

MM             I don’t know. Is there anything that you were thinking about now?

VR              No. There are certain patients that have stuck in my mind. But over the years I remember fondly. But that I think overall have added to the richness of my experience. And have made me the nurse that I am. So yes, those people have contributed to being where I am today. Yes.

LM              And what are you both looking forward to?

VR              Where are we going?

MM             Vietnam.

02:02:04

VR              We’re going to Vietnam. We’ve got a holiday booked for 2023. I was being very facetious when I said 2023, but now I think that’s not such bad planning.

LM              Sounds good. What time is your flight?

VR              I don’t know. I haven’t looked that far ahead now. No I don’t. I’m looking forward to going to the theatre. I’m looking forward to socialising. I’ve kept touch with two groups of friends. One, a group of research nurses from Guys and St Thomas’. And the other is a group of nurses from The Marsden.

                   And we used to get together once every three months. Just have dinner. We haven’t had a chance to do that for the last two years. We have an annual Christmas do, normally. And that has been put on hold. We haven’t had it for two years now. Very bad.

MM             And she’s a massive extrovert.

VR              I am not. I’m not an extrovert like that. It’s only with my colleagues.

MM             She really likes people. And talking.

VR              Yes, I like people. That’s why I like my job.

02:03:50

LM              If you had to sum up your mom, how would you characterise her?

MM             Oh no. Like in a word?

LM              Yes.

VR              In one word?

MM             Not in a word?

LM              Yes.

MM             I don’t know. I don’t like this question. Probably generous. I know you just said, not in one word. But I’m going to go for a single word. I think Generous. Like with time and care. Like giving, yes. She always says that, what do you say about the bread?

VR              Bread. I say if they have one slice of bread they must give half away. I said, even if you’re left with a slice of bread, and somebody comes to you, you shouldn’t think that you’ve only got one slice and hold onto it. You should give half away, to whoever comes asking. That’s very important. My sister wouldn’t agree with me.

LM              What do you think you’ve learnt most from your mom?

MM             I don’t know.

VR              Not to give away.

MM             Keep the slice of bread. You will be hungry tomorrow. I think lots of different things. She’s very principled. So I think something about that maybe. Like doing a job, make sure you do the job well. And sticking to what you know is right, and doing it, seeing it through to the end. Probably the main thing.

02:06:08

LM              Thank you so much.

VR              No problem.

LM              You guys have been amazing.

VR              Thank you.

LM              I need a sip of water.

VR              Have you got one? Oh you’ve got your.

LM              Oh, just quickly. This will really help, if you don’t mind. One o’clock. Can I get to repeat after me, one o’clock.

VR              One o’clock.

LM              Two o’clock.

VR              Two o’clock.

LM              And so on.

VR              Three o’clock. Wait, you want it all? Okay. One o’clock. Two o’clock. Three o’clock. Four o’clock. Five o’clock. Six o’clock. Seven o’clock. Eight o’clock. Nine o’clock. Ten o’clock. Eleven o’clock. Twelve o’clock. Midnight. Don’t forget.

02:07:28

LM              And would you just be able to very quickly introduce each other. So my mum, my daughter. Yes as if you were introducing.

VR              So this is my baby, Morisha. That’s how I introduce her.

MM             This is my mom, Vernie.

VR              She is my baby after all. It’s true. Really. I’m very proud of her. She’s a good daughter. Well no, I don’t know if she’s a good daughter. She hates doing housework. No, she’s been very inspirational. So she’s good, she’s good for me. She listens to all my complaining and all my nonsense.

                   So from that perspective, she’s a good daughter. Well she’s a good daughter overall, end of story. Both my son and my daughter don’t argue, which is wonderful. Isn’t it? You don’t argue. No. it’s probably why I’m so bossy. That’s probably why you don’t argue.

LM              So what’s the family set up? Give me a picture of dinner time at your house.

VR              We don’t have dinner together. It would be impossible. Now things have gotten even worse now isn’t it? We have dinner together maybe once in a while. If we go to my sister’s. Christmas dinner, we have that together.

MM             Maybe birthdays.

VR              Maybe birthdays. Yes. We don’t have dinner together. Primarily because we are all having. I mean I come home late. And I eat whatever time I get home. This one forgets to cook and she forgets to eat.

02:09:59

                   During the COVID time, I was regularly shouting at her at one o’clock in the morning to come and eat. Oh God, so annoying. My mom, sometimes, I think because, I don’t know if it’s because of her age or whatever, she doesn’t feel hungry anymore. So she doesn’t want to eat a lot. And then you have to nag her as if she was a child. Very irritating.

LM              I wish I had that problem.

VR              That you don’t eat?

LM              Yes.

VR              There’s nothing of you. I’m sure you can eat as much as you want, and you won’t have any effect.

LM              I just mean, just thinking about it all of the time. It takes a lot of time, doesn’t it?

VR              That’s what Ish says.

MM             Literally.

VR              When you ask her, what do you want for dinner.

MM             Because my grandmother, she likes to cook. I can cook food, but I don’t know how to cook Indian food. So she likes, it will be like 11 am and she’s like, what do you want for dinner. I’m like, I just ate breakfast. I can’t think that far ahead.

02:11:11

VR              Very annoying. And my mum scolds me because I don’t take care of them and cook for them properly. True. She was just doing that this weekend, that I shouted at her. I scolded her back. I thought oh, please stop.

LM              Well I think you seem like a very good mom. And you seem like a very good daughter.

VR              Thank you.

LM              Yes. Because it’s in the relationship, isn’t it?

VR              I think we have a good relationship. We’ve developed.

MM             Yes.

VR              It’s developed yes. It wasn’t a good relationship. We’ve grown together I think, isn’t it? Yes.

LM              What’s your tips? Just because my mom and me, don’t have a great. I mean I love her very much, but we, and we love each other, but we don’t connect I think?

VR              I don’t think, so in a lot of ways. Because Ish went through a really bad time. She’s got panic disorder. And so it was a really, really difficult time for us. Because I think there is lots of, she’s very suspicious. There were a lot of arguments and things like that. So I think after she’d come through her counselling.

                   Although to be fair. I think the time brought us a little bit closer. A little bit.

02:13:00

                   But what it also did for me, was to make, I’ve given her her space. As long as I know she’s safe, I don’t get involved in what’s happening with her. She just carries on. She’ll do whatever she wants. If she wants to discuss something. So if something is troubling her, or something has happened.

                   And it’s worrying her, she’s come and she’ll talk to me about it. But otherwise she won’t. She has he space to do her own things. As long as I know she is safe, that I know where she is going. And I am able to contact her. Then that’s good enough for me.

                   And then also on the other hand, although I have a lot of friends, I would say that she’s probably my sounding board for everything. You know I talk to her a lot about what’s happening, whether it’s work, personal or whatever. If somebody has irritated me, or something like, that.

                   She would be the person I would talk to about it. And she’s a good listener. She just listens without commenting. So a lot of the times, she’s just there and I’m just talking. This has happened, that has happened. And she just listens to me ramble on.

                   We do things together. Go to the theatre. Go to dinner now and then. We’ve been on holiday together.

MM             Walking.

02:14:31

VR              We go walking together. And we have some similar interests. She listens to some weird music. But I’ve learnt to have it in the background. We’ve been to concerts together. Yes. Because, her dad wasn’t with us as she was growing up. So I used to take her and her friends, go with her friends ad hoc, to concerts and things.

                   And I’m very, very proud of her school accomplishments with relations to her art. I’ve always wanted to be an artist. And to see her doing it, is so good for me. It feels really, really great. But also, she sort of gone, because of her panic disorder. We went through the entire school, she had to drop subjects.

                   And it wasn’t pleasant. She couldn’t school properly. And we had problems when she went to university. She lived in the accommodation and had to come back home, because she couldn’t be in that environment. Which was also, on the other hand, was very good for me.

                   Because I had terrible empty nest syndrome. I wouldn’t let her stay in accommodation, she had to come home every weekend. I was so bad. And she’s gone over and beyond all that. I mean even for me, I won’t go out. I like people, but its people I know. I can extend myself for my patients.

                   Because I’m caring for them, and I have to develop a relationship for them. But in my own personal life, I hate going out for a meal alone. I hate going to the theatre. I can’t do anything by myself. But Ish, even with all her problems, and even through crowds panic her, and people panic her, and strange situations and strange environments panic her.

02:16:34

                   She’ll put herself in all those situations and she’s sort of. For me that’s been so inspirational. She’d go over and beyond and I would think, oh gosh, she’s actually doing that. Even though she’s so panicked by the entire situation. So in that way, she’s been really inspirational for me.

                   And that her little successes, winning little prizes. She did really well at uni. She got honours at Central St Martins. It was great.

MM             So that was it.  

VR              I know. It was brilliant for me. Oh God. So all that has been really great for me.

LM              Yes.

VR              Yes. So we do things. We’ve grown to like each other.

LM              And the balance of nursing and mothering?

VR              There is no balance. I’m a nurse first and foremost. I always have been. My mother brought my kids up. Really. And when I came to the UK, I worked nearly every weekend. And even when we had nobody around, my son was her primary carer, when she was little. Weekends, my son cared for her.

02:17:57

                   I used to work 60 or 70 hours a week. So I was always at work. And he brought her up basically. They’re very close. My son had no teenage life. He had the odd weekend when I stayed at home, and given the time off. But he looked after her every weekend. She’s looking at me stunned.

LM              No not at all. No I’m not, because, well I had not quite, not totally the same. But my mum was also very career driven. What was your take on it?

MM             On what?

VR              Not having me around.

MM             Oh I don’t know. I can’t remember most of it.

VR              My mom was there.

MM             My grandmother has been like, taking care of me. She has since I was two. She’s been taking care of me. So yes, I think when ma is here, it’s been.

VR              Well the other thing this. So my mum starting taking care of her when she was five months old, and I had to go back to work. But I left her with my mom when she was two and half, three years old. And I came to the UK. I left both children. So my mum’s been her mum basically.

                   We’ve just gotten really close I think, now that she’s more of an adult. I think maybe from school time, 15, 16.

MM             That counselling and therapy helped a lot.

VR              Yes, and also because, well both my kids. If you had to give them a choice, choosing between grandparents and parents, they’ll choose the grandparents.

02:20:03

MM             True.

VR              It’s true. I have no bitter feelings about this. It’s just fact.

LM              You guys are amazing. And I should let you go. You must be so tired. I feel like, this is oral history turned interrogation. I hope it hasn’t felt like that. I’m just so fascinated by you guys. I don’t know. I know it’s just deep.

MM             How many people have you interviewed?

LM              No one at this length. I think my mind isn’t working so well. And you guys are really interesting. So it’s a combination of those two things.

VR              Well I hope you’ve gotten enough material.

LM              Oh, just quickly say, nurse or mother.

VR              Nurse or mother. Nurse or mother.

LM              I’m sure this is completely different to how you do your, I’m sure you’re just more organised.

MM             But it was interesting because I do a lot interviews.

LM              How do you do them? I mean I do them different every time.

02:21:33

MM             I know I get that. I kind of like respond to the person.

VR              I think as well, it’s difficult if you’re doing such personal interviews. It’s also one of the reasons why, appointments, and when you’re doing nursing appointments and things like that. They overrun, because you can’t stop people.

LM              Okay, [inaudible] the artwork. You’re going to have one as well. [Inaudible]. Shall I take you through it?

MM             No it’s okay.

LM              This is like. I’m going to be holding onto the recordings. Until such day. And [inaudible] All their Guys and St Thomas nurses going back to [inaudible].

VR              I remember when I came to be it was some I manged to get a cape.

MM             Like a fancy dress?

VR              Yes, my black cape with a red collar that the nurses use. Because they did a, they came to Westminster Abbey to do something or the other.

LM              Didn’t they have a Florence Nightingale day or something? And they light a flame there in the chapel. Someone told me that Florence Nightingale inadvertently killed her parents. Because she was a nurse before she was a [inaudible].

VR              That is awful.

LM              No, but not in a bad way. She was with her patients.

VR              You mean she didn’t think about the patients.

LM              No.

02:24:36